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Recent Comment About Campagnolo Ultra Torque

Here's a comment that I recieved earlier this week.  I'm sorry that he's having this frustrating issue and it's frustrating to me as well that Campagnolo still chooses to ignore this.  It's not just me folks.  Thanks SD for taking the time to share your first hand experience with me.  -John

Greeting from a not-so-sunny UK. I tell you what, John - some people out there must run some seriously poorly maintained bikes (I know for sure they do!). Those who claim that there is not a problem with UT BB's are either very lucky or ignorant. I run two Ridleys (both 68mm shells) and have no end of problems with clunking. It's not just me - it's everyone else I know that has these problems with UT and not just on Ridleys - I'm talking Scott, Fondriest, Lightspeed, Pinarello, Colnago. I speak from experience here as I ride and race upwards of 15000 miles per annum in all weathers. I've tried the two wavy washer approach and that has helped although there is still movement enough in there to score the surfaces of both washers after 500 miles or so of use. It's a seriously flawed design, no matter what the response to the contrary. If you hadn't carried out the research you have then we'd all be the worse for it. That's a fact. 100%. I'll be ordering a couple of shim kits and experimenting. I'm fed up with the constant stripping, regreasing, rebuilding, etc. I even switched to Ceramic Speed bearings and cups to see if that would help but to no avail. Shims are absolutely what is needed. Even if you decide to retain the (compressed to 0.7 or 0.8mm) wavy washer element you would still need to ensure that it had no more than 1mm of space to occupy otherwise your assembly will be slopping all over the place. In either case, whether you keep the washer or ditch it, you need to shim out that 'difference'. Keep up the good work, mate. Cheers S.D

New Arrival: 2012 Mavic CrossMax SLR Disc Spokes

Just a heads-up that I now have 2012 Mavic Crossmax SLR Disc spokes instock.  The part numbers are 30864101 for the Drive side and 30864201 for the front and nondrive side.  Click on the yellow box to the right or Store in the menu above.

Additionally, I have a good selection of Mavic Zircal spokes for Ksyrium and Crossmax wheels going back to 2000 in some cases.  Besides spokes, I have replacement freehub bodys, pawl and spring kits, seals, and other small parts.  If you do not see what you need, just shoot me an email.

In closing, I've been getting requests to stock spokes for Crossmax ST, 29er wheels, as well as Tracomp spokes.  Stay tuned, I am planning of adding those soon.

Where It Happens.

By popular demand, and quite a few requests lately, here's a rare look into RogueMechanic HQ.  It's where everything pretty much happens relating to the business.  As you can see in the photos, it's a fully equipped shop that has everything that I need to get the work done and then some.  Besides shorage for bikes that are in the queue, two stands, my tools, and a 5HP 22 gallon compressor, it also has a Crest Ultrasonics 5.75gallon heated ultrasonic cleaner.  I hope that this satisfies some of your curiosities.  Thanks for checking in and as always, let me know if you have any questions or comments.  -John

Service Menu Added

Just a heads-up.  I added a page on the site that lists what is included in some of the service packages that I offer.  You can find the link to the page on the menu bar above. Or you can click here.

The Latest Haterade

I thought that I'd share with you the latest "haterade" comment that I received.  As you might guess, it's about the Campagnolo Ultra Torque non-issue....

"There weren't enough failures showing up in the field yet for this relatively new part to cause market flashback". It appears from the email that the author experienced this alleged issue in 2010. Ultra Torque was released in 2006. Its now 2012. How many ultra torque cranksets do you think have been sold in this time? A google search still shows just you and your pathetic little campaign. No "market flashback" yet. Meanwhile... in the real world: http://forums.cervelo.com/forums/p/2519/15292.aspx Read it and weep. You're fooling nobody. Idiot.

Thank you for your comment.  I'm sure that you have more experience than I do with this.  What flavor is that kool-aid?

Radio Check....

Just checking in.  I'm still here folks.  I'm slammed with work and had a good amount of new clients recently that I am truly grateful for.  These new clients contacted me by way of referals.  Again, I am grateful for those of you who are spreading the word.  That's it for now...time to get back to what I do!  -John

Review of Lennard Zinn's "Adapt This!"

Recently, I received an email from Matt T. asking me if I have read the article in the 2012 Velo Magazine Buyers Guide by Lennard Zinn about the current bottom bracket nonsense that's currently going on.  I replied that I haven't seen it but i will try to track it down.  After failing to find it online, I was able to get a client to get me a copy of the article.  I, like Matt, was blown away that the editors allowed Zinn to ripp the industry a new hole over all of these new "standards".  Below are some of the great points that I really agree with...

In a few short years, the cycling industry has gone from essentially two threaded standards....to at least 16 threadless standards:  eight each for road and MTB.

"With the upside of increased frame stiffness claims, that are largely correct, comes a mechanic's nightmare."

"Complaints about creaking or dislodged bearings are common after a frame is replaced with one that has a different BB shell standard than the original.  The customer is unlikely to want to buy a new crankset to go with the replacement frame, but many times the adapters creak or work their way out of the frame.  The solution to this creaking? In many cases, frame or crank manufacturers suggest using Loctite.  Clearly this is a flaw in the design of the system if that's the fix. "(emphasis added by me)

"But the whole idea of press-fit bottom brackets, after all, is to fit into frames that are not made to exact tolerances so that they can be simply molded with cheap labor and not machined afterward.  Now you see the problem."

"Is the marginal increase in stiffness worth decreased bearing life, fighting with clunky adapters, annoying creaks, or buying new cranks after a crash?  Of course not.  We can only hope that the industry pulls it's collective head out of the sand and returns meaning to the word "standard," and that it does so after agreeing on a design that truly works.  Until then, cherish that threaded frame, if you still have one."

Thank you Lennard for saying what needs to be said.  It is really refreshing and it supports what I've been saying for quite some time.  Now go out and find the 2012 Buyers Guide and read the whole article and check out the tables of the bottom bracket shell specifications.  You will see why this drives me nuts.  Thanks for checking in.  -John

Recent Email Regarding Campagnolo Ultra Torque

I received an email from someone last week or so that impressed the heck out of me because of how thorough and logical approach was addressing this issue.  This is too good not to share.  He was experiencing the dreaded non-issue with his Campagnolo Ultra Torque System.  I must say that his theory of the clicking coming from the Hirth joint is interesting and not unrealistic.  This being said, I still think that the majority of the noises (knocking and clicking) is more related to the axial movement.  Usually movement usually and eventually developes into noise.  Nevertheless, below are exerps (i.e. the meat) of the correspondence... I excluded identies to protect the inocent from the rabid Campy loyalists...

Here is an account of my experience with this problem, as related to the person I sold my bike to:

As you might have guessed from our conversation, I try to be thorough when confronting a mechanical problem.  So I can tell you that I did research the web for postings of similar problems and did find a few, including an earlier--and much shorter--report from the "Rogue Mechanic."  Here we are, approximately 2 years later, and the reports seem to be everywhere.  This is what I expected, given the nature of Campy's new design.
I had already tried pretty much everything you will find in the list of "fixes" attempted, including:

1) sending the crank back to Campy for replacement--they said the crank was fine but that they "found sand in the bearings."  This lie confounded me at the time--the crank had been used for perhaps 20 miles only on clean, dry pavement--but now makes sense if they were trying to avoid an avalanche of complaints for which they had no solution.
2) replaced the bearings (with ceramic ones), which--of course--made no difference
3) refaced the bottom bracket, to make sure it was dimensionally accurate, and that the opposing bearing shells were completely parallel
4) replaced the bearing shells themselves---just in case
5) got rid of the stupid wave washer, and shimmed up the non-drive side with shims ordered from McMaster Carr in L.A.  (still have all the shims, if you're interested)
6) Then, as I mentioned, I hooked up the Chassis Ear to try to determine exactly just where within the bottom bracket this click was originating.  I used several microphones, and by switching between them was able to determine that the noise was as loud on the non-drive side as the chain ring side.  By inference, my suspicion is that the joint itself makes this clicking noise.  Now, one wonders, how is this possible?
Well, look at the size of the coupling bolt which secures the two crank halves.  Its diameter is constrained by the inside bore diameter of the bored-out (and consequently weakened) crank.  In addition, this bolt is countersunk to a depth of a couple of centimeters, which results in reduced weight of the crank, but also reduces strength and leaves a shallow coupling for Campy's ill-advised choice of a short coupling bolt with very few threads.  This combination, in my view, most likely allows movement in the Hirth joint itself and the resulting noise.  Using Loctite to secure those threads made no difference.
Now, it occurred to me that one method of confirming this conclusion would be to apply machinist's blue dye to the Hirth joint itself, and then ride the bike, take it apart, examine the dye pattern, etc. This is the method for determining exactness of gear occlusion in critical applications such as automotive differential ring and pinion gears.  Suspecting this would confirm my suspicion (and having the knowledge and experience to do this), I brought home some machinist's dye.  At this point, however, I reflected on how much time I had already spent, and what--if any--benefit would come from further testing.  Campagnolo had not only showed no interest in the problem, it had lied to one of its best and most faithful dealers about it.  There weren't enough failures showing up in the field yet for this relatively new part to cause market flashback.  And I had moved on, as, evidently, had the engineers at Campagnolo.

 My response...

I hope that this message finds you well and thank you very much for sharing your experience and technical expertise.  I really appreciate the process that you went through because it was thorough and logical.  I also understand your frustration, not only with the design but also with the company completely turning it's back on an obvious design flaw/issue.  I'm sure that you saw all of the flack that I caught bringing this to light...that was and still is interesting.  Recently I was told by Tom K., the national sales manager, that they designed the axial movement into the system.  I politely threw up the BS flag...
Anyway, I find your theory of the Hirth joint to be very interesting as the Ducati gear example.  I agree that it's not the best choice for this application and can certainly lead to creating a noise.  As you are probably well aware, movement will eventually manifest into a noise.  It would have been interesting to see the results of you using the machinist's dye... In fact, if I get a chance and have the time, I just might do it... I'll let you know.
For what it's worth, the complaints that I have heard regarding the noise fall in the knock and click range.  From what I can tell, the knock seems to be from the loading and unloading of the wave washer.  I find that this is more prevalent on bikes with BB shell widths on the low end of the tolerance spec.  It seems to me that the clicks happen when the bearing and/or  cups are worn and or dry (very little grease).  I actually have examples of cups with the finish rubbed off from the axial bearing movement.  All of this being said, after reading your theory, it certainly very reasonable that the clicking can also be coming from the Hirth joint.  I certainly wouldn't rule it out.  This in fact is going to bug the crap out of me until I try the machinist's dye... stay tuned.
In closing, thanks again for sharing this with me.  I always like getting different prospectives from those who have hands on experience and not form those who for one reason or another cannot remove themselves from the theoretical world.

Best regards,

John

...and his reply:

Thanks for the comments, which I'm also passing along to the owner of the bike with which I had this UltraTorque problem.
I also can see why the wave-washer approach might cause a knocking sound, but the "click" that I had was really elusive.  It only happened when standing off the saddle and climbing grades above 12% or so, but was unnerving on those occasions.  A Shimano crank with square-profile axle (like the previous Centaur crank) solved the problem.
Keep up the good work.

 

Shimano Di2 Front Derailleur - 1 Felt F1 Front Derailleur Mount -0

I had to address an issue last week on a client's bike that had to do with the front derailleur mount on his 2011 Felt F1.  I did the frame-up build with Shimano Dura Ace Di2 in the early part of this past summer.  This bike was not abused and I'd have to give a gold star to this client because of how well he takes care of his bikes.  So, here's a short description of the issue and then my fix...

After inspection, it was obvious that the front derailler mount seperated from the frame.  Two of the three rivets used to attach the mount to the carbon seattube were floating in the hole that they were innitially installed in and both of the holes were now larger in diameter than they originally were because of the damage caused by the rivets installed at the factory.

The first two photos are with the Di2 front derailleur and without.

I initially thought that the failure was mainly caused by the different and greater forces introduced by the Di2 front derailleur in addition to possibly a poorly installed blind rivet (see third photo).

After retreveing from inside the frame and inspecting the other two rivets I came to another conclusion.... I believe that this failure was because of the type of blind rivets used.  Based on my inspection and research, the blind rivets that Felt used were either completely the wrong spec based on the materials being joined (composite and aluminum) or they didn't account for the stronger force that is applied to the area by the Di2 front derailleur.  From what I can tell, the rivets that Felt used are sometimes called multigrip rivets because they can be used in applications where the hole is irregular or oversized.  This type of blind rivet body expands to fill the hole.  All three rivets did not expand against the internal surface of the carbon seattube.  Because of this, one of the three rivets seperated completely from the frame while one of the others was loose.

So here's what I did to repair and make it better that it was when it came out of the factory....

I special ordered a blind rivet that with the dimensions that would work with the existing components and the combined material thicknesses.  This type of rivet is sometimes referred to as a press plate rivet.

I wanted to test the press plate rivet and compair it to the OE rivet.  I did this with a section of carbon steer tube (see photo).  The one on the left is the OE rivet and the one on the right is the upgraded replacement.

I was satisfied that this was a good solution.  Besides the different rivets, I wanted to bond the mount to the seattube with epoxy just for good measure.

 

 

The repair was pretty straight forward.  I started by applying some epoxy in and around the two damaged holes in the frame.  After in cured, I redrilled/cleaned the two holes to the correct diameter.  I then burnished the inside surface of the front derailleur mount in order to improve adhesion.  I then applied epoxy to the frame, installed the three rivets, insured alignment and fit and then I let it cure.

As you can see the the last image, the rivet heads are obviously a larger diameter and not as pretty as the original rivet heads.  In this situation, I choose structural integrity over cosmetic appeal.  The end result was better than when it was new. 

In closing, I believe that we are going to see more of this problem moving forward with more and more Di2 front derailleurs and the like being used, specifically on carbon frames that do not use a front derailleur clamp.  Let me know what you think.  Thanks for checking in.  -John

 

 

 

 

What's up besides the rent?

USPS shipping rates...among other things.. Just a head's up folks. I had to adjust the shipping rates for the online store to reflect rate increases made by USPS a week or so ago. The biggest jump was for USPS Priority Interational. It's just a few bucks more, but I figured I'd let you know in case you were wondering.